Hey Scorp,
Saw the discussion regarding the end-game item progression in the other thread and thought i'd give my feedbacks here.
The title is a oversimplification of what i think is a common flaw for many mmorpgs.
Which is, character progression revolved around too much rng.
Gameplay wise, the updated RDD and BDP are amazing. They are filled with challenging content and difficult encounters. But why do many people still find them "not worth it"?
People complain about that its better just to do the 4x red dragons than to go kill the ancient red dragon. With proper teamwork, ancient red dragon can be reached without spendin too much gg on rev scrolls and the boss itself isnt very hard either. But why do people find it not worth the risk?
People complain about that the cost of 200 demon souls is too much, when you can get 200 souls easily with 1-2 hours of group hunt + bounty quest.
This is because the item drops from those dungeons does not feel rewarding enough, due to the multiple layers of rng elements of the item drops.
Take 2 different scenarios:
1. The final bosses in new BDP/RDD have a chance to drop a new rare item, call it "Holy Celestial". They are the new absolute rarest item in game with best base stats. After teamwork and alot of time spent in those dungeons (including farming demon souls and all preparation that went into it), you finally kill the last boss and it drops a new rare item. The person who gets the item gets to show it off in Arcadia and enjoy the feeling of having the best item in game.
Even if the new rare item doesn't drop, the group feels encouraged to go back again because you see someone else wearing that new "Holy celestial armour" in town, and everybody wants to get one aswell.
When you kill the boss, There's excitment while watching the items reveil themselves on the ground and the anticipation of seeing that "holy celestial" name on the ground.
Although it is still rng, but all those positive feelings are associated with the killing of that boss, teamwork and time spent.
2. As it is now, the last boss drops a bunch of zuma/orc items. The boss is finally killed after long and hard work, you see so many red items on the floor but why isn't it as exciting? and why don't players want to go back?
- First, you are looking for that mythic flare from the item (rng),
- Then, even if the item is mythic, you are still hoping it to be a good mythic like survive or guardian, instead of wisdom or everlast (rng).
- Then, even if its good mythic, you hope that the unique stats is + fire/dark/ice resistance and not holy/lightning resistance (rng).
- Even if its a good mythic and have good unique stat, you have to rune it and redo it (more rng, sometimes costing many gg and takes long time) before you can get the feeling that the item is the best item in the game.
Whereas having a new "Holy celestial" item feels just so much better even if its not upgraded or runed, compared to a mythic/unique zuma item.
This is not good character progression because its hard for players to feel the "progress" when their time spend/hard work are overwhelmed by multiple layers of rng.
And most importantly, people does not get that positive feeling associated with killing the final boss compared to scenario 1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
In conclusion, reduced the layers of rng based systems in character progression and introduce new real "unique" items aka rare items like Celestial/Holy Crystal.
While some rng system can be addictive and fun (I prefer some gambling elements in my character progression bcuz i am an addict
).
Most of the time these rng systems leaves the players feeling disappointed and it is proven that people are far more likely to remember their negative streaks rather than the good ones. Simply because it is more likely for the negative streaks to occur in these systems, ex. upgrading
i feel like scenario 1 described above is much better in encouraging players to revisit the new game contents while farming old contents for demon souls and salvaging materials. Although the "new items" from the new RDD/BDP are called unique, they don't feel unique compare to celestial.
I do like the stats the new unique items and mythic items. They allow more diversity in character/item builds which are very nice content for end-game players/big donators to work towards.
However, the multiple layers of rng that is required to get those items are simply not very fun and satisfying for the players.
A good example of too much rng layers that disencourage players of playing in mmo is world of warcraft.
When wow was at its peak (in terms of subscribers), players could get that 1 item that was best in slot (BIS). You saw that player with those huge shoulderpads and you knew immedietly he was a beast who has conquered the hardest dungeon in the game.
However in the Warlords of draenor expansion, they introduced "warforged" items. Everytime a item drops, it has a chance of being warforged, which gives the item extra item level and stats. The level of warforge can vary aswell.
So basically, people ended up have to farm dungeons over and over and hoping that the item they get is the best warforged level possible.
Instead of getting excited when seeing "Sword of xxxx" dropping, you won't, unless the item is warforged. Even if it was warforged, its not good unless its a "max" warforged level.
This has always been a common criticism for world of warcraft. Yhroughout the years, many content creator/players who have left wow has named this multiple layers of rng system as a part of the reason why they have stopped playing, and why the game doesn't feel as good as before.
This video explains it very well why rng on top of rng can feel very disencouraging for mmo players to play/progress the game.
-----------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion:
As a player who returned to the game a few month ago, one of the new features i really enjoyed was working on was the upgrade quest for my EM weapon.
I know this process has been criticized.
For example that it is almost impossible for people who don't play much to complete this. The latest fix of making the chips not expire fixes this. Although sometimes mobs drop more chips, but in the long run, the drop rate is static.
People also complain that now even the "noobs" can got em upgrades if they have enough time.
Which i think its perfectly ok, players should be rewarded for their time spent in the game.
Plus "noobs" farms slower than players that plays better and have better equipment.
Ran off the topic here abit, but i think a good way to eliminated the multiple layers of rng associated with mythic/unique items is to make them quest based instead.
How it works:
All the bosses/mobs will have a chance to drop "mythic chips" instead of making mythic items a rng based drop as it is now.
Where the chips are used to upgrade an existing item to an specific or random mythic attribute.
For example you can use 50 "mythic chips" + an existing item to give that item the "survive" mythic.
Or you can use 10 "mythic chips" + an item to get that item a "random" mythic. Its rng, but the player can choose to go for the random option for less chips, or a specific mythic for more chips.
Same with the unique stats that are given to items dropped from new BDP/RDD, make bosses in these dungeon to drop quest items that allows you to upgrade existing items, rather than a rng based drop system as it is now.
But too much quests can disencourage players too as they can feel like chores. Especially those players who don't have alot of time to play, especially considering our player base who are mostly grown adults with families.
At the same time, adult players can afford to spend more on an video game compared to teenagers without income. (You know what to do)
Anyways, i hope the text wasn't too much and can provide you with some more ideas in improving the player experience for the future!
Looking forward to ideas and discussions from other players aswell.
Saw the discussion regarding the end-game item progression in the other thread and thought i'd give my feedbacks here.
The title is a oversimplification of what i think is a common flaw for many mmorpgs.
Which is, character progression revolved around too much rng.
Gameplay wise, the updated RDD and BDP are amazing. They are filled with challenging content and difficult encounters. But why do many people still find them "not worth it"?
People complain about that its better just to do the 4x red dragons than to go kill the ancient red dragon. With proper teamwork, ancient red dragon can be reached without spendin too much gg on rev scrolls and the boss itself isnt very hard either. But why do people find it not worth the risk?
People complain about that the cost of 200 demon souls is too much, when you can get 200 souls easily with 1-2 hours of group hunt + bounty quest.
This is because the item drops from those dungeons does not feel rewarding enough, due to the multiple layers of rng elements of the item drops.
Take 2 different scenarios:
1. The final bosses in new BDP/RDD have a chance to drop a new rare item, call it "Holy Celestial". They are the new absolute rarest item in game with best base stats. After teamwork and alot of time spent in those dungeons (including farming demon souls and all preparation that went into it), you finally kill the last boss and it drops a new rare item. The person who gets the item gets to show it off in Arcadia and enjoy the feeling of having the best item in game.
Even if the new rare item doesn't drop, the group feels encouraged to go back again because you see someone else wearing that new "Holy celestial armour" in town, and everybody wants to get one aswell.
When you kill the boss, There's excitment while watching the items reveil themselves on the ground and the anticipation of seeing that "holy celestial" name on the ground.
Although it is still rng, but all those positive feelings are associated with the killing of that boss, teamwork and time spent.
2. As it is now, the last boss drops a bunch of zuma/orc items. The boss is finally killed after long and hard work, you see so many red items on the floor but why isn't it as exciting? and why don't players want to go back?
- First, you are looking for that mythic flare from the item (rng),
- Then, even if the item is mythic, you are still hoping it to be a good mythic like survive or guardian, instead of wisdom or everlast (rng).
- Then, even if its good mythic, you hope that the unique stats is + fire/dark/ice resistance and not holy/lightning resistance (rng).
- Even if its a good mythic and have good unique stat, you have to rune it and redo it (more rng, sometimes costing many gg and takes long time) before you can get the feeling that the item is the best item in the game.
Whereas having a new "Holy celestial" item feels just so much better even if its not upgraded or runed, compared to a mythic/unique zuma item.
This is not good character progression because its hard for players to feel the "progress" when their time spend/hard work are overwhelmed by multiple layers of rng.
And most importantly, people does not get that positive feeling associated with killing the final boss compared to scenario 1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
In conclusion, reduced the layers of rng based systems in character progression and introduce new real "unique" items aka rare items like Celestial/Holy Crystal.
While some rng system can be addictive and fun (I prefer some gambling elements in my character progression bcuz i am an addict
).Most of the time these rng systems leaves the players feeling disappointed and it is proven that people are far more likely to remember their negative streaks rather than the good ones. Simply because it is more likely for the negative streaks to occur in these systems, ex. upgrading
i feel like scenario 1 described above is much better in encouraging players to revisit the new game contents while farming old contents for demon souls and salvaging materials. Although the "new items" from the new RDD/BDP are called unique, they don't feel unique compare to celestial.
I do like the stats the new unique items and mythic items. They allow more diversity in character/item builds which are very nice content for end-game players/big donators to work towards.
However, the multiple layers of rng that is required to get those items are simply not very fun and satisfying for the players.
A good example of too much rng layers that disencourage players of playing in mmo is world of warcraft.
When wow was at its peak (in terms of subscribers), players could get that 1 item that was best in slot (BIS). You saw that player with those huge shoulderpads and you knew immedietly he was a beast who has conquered the hardest dungeon in the game.
However in the Warlords of draenor expansion, they introduced "warforged" items. Everytime a item drops, it has a chance of being warforged, which gives the item extra item level and stats. The level of warforge can vary aswell.
So basically, people ended up have to farm dungeons over and over and hoping that the item they get is the best warforged level possible.
Instead of getting excited when seeing "Sword of xxxx" dropping, you won't, unless the item is warforged. Even if it was warforged, its not good unless its a "max" warforged level.
This has always been a common criticism for world of warcraft. Yhroughout the years, many content creator/players who have left wow has named this multiple layers of rng system as a part of the reason why they have stopped playing, and why the game doesn't feel as good as before.
This video explains it very well why rng on top of rng can feel very disencouraging for mmo players to play/progress the game.
-----------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion:
As a player who returned to the game a few month ago, one of the new features i really enjoyed was working on was the upgrade quest for my EM weapon.
I know this process has been criticized.
For example that it is almost impossible for people who don't play much to complete this. The latest fix of making the chips not expire fixes this. Although sometimes mobs drop more chips, but in the long run, the drop rate is static.
People also complain that now even the "noobs" can got em upgrades if they have enough time.
Which i think its perfectly ok, players should be rewarded for their time spent in the game.
Plus "noobs" farms slower than players that plays better and have better equipment.
Ran off the topic here abit, but i think a good way to eliminated the multiple layers of rng associated with mythic/unique items is to make them quest based instead.
How it works:
All the bosses/mobs will have a chance to drop "mythic chips" instead of making mythic items a rng based drop as it is now.
Where the chips are used to upgrade an existing item to an specific or random mythic attribute.
For example you can use 50 "mythic chips" + an existing item to give that item the "survive" mythic.
Or you can use 10 "mythic chips" + an item to get that item a "random" mythic. Its rng, but the player can choose to go for the random option for less chips, or a specific mythic for more chips.
Same with the unique stats that are given to items dropped from new BDP/RDD, make bosses in these dungeon to drop quest items that allows you to upgrade existing items, rather than a rng based drop system as it is now.
But too much quests can disencourage players too as they can feel like chores. Especially those players who don't have alot of time to play, especially considering our player base who are mostly grown adults with families.
At the same time, adult players can afford to spend more on an video game compared to teenagers without income. (You know what to do
)Anyways, i hope the text wasn't too much and can provide you with some more ideas in improving the player experience for the future!
Looking forward to ideas and discussions from other players aswell.
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